July 4 celebrations make you a republican

[Dave Harman]

Do you get the irony of championing rights for companies? You do know they're not people? Would your stance go so far as to support gay marriage rights? Personal choice rights? Or do you draw the line when it actually comes to people?

Companies aren't made up of people?? Darned if all the people in this company don't look like real people to me.

My personal stance, as a libertarian, is that I don't give a crap what people do, as long as it doesn't infringe on my rights. Marry whoever you want to, Bob.

[DJSHOCKLEY]

Do you get the irony of championing rights for companies? You do know they're not people? Would your stance go so far as to support gay marriage rights? Personal choice rights? Or do you draw the line when it actually comes to people?

Companies aren't made up of people?? Darned if all the people in this company don't look like real people to me.

My personal stance, as a libertarian, is that I don't give a crap what people do, as long as it doesn't infringe on my rights. Marry whoever you want to, Bob.

Exactly..

And as a corporation, the LAST damn thing they care about is your rights..

They only care about making money....

And if you or your children die because of their negligence, then it sucks to be you...

If hundreds of thousands die in an unnecessary war then that is just fine because the Military Industrial Complex has to have its share

Any attitude to the contrary is socialism...

Anyone that dares to question the system doesn't love their country..

[Dave Harman]

And if you or your children die because of their negligence, then it sucks to be you...

If hundreds of thousands die in an unnecessary war then that is just fine because the Military Industrial Complex has to have its share

Any attitude to the contrary is socialism...

Anyone that dares to question the system doesn't love their country..

That's absurd. Surely you don't actually believe that, and are just being absurd for the sake of being absurd. If those situations happen, then the corporation has clearly infringed on other's rights, and action can and should be taken against them.

I don't understand how you can call yourself Liberal, yet be in favor of the government seizing control of all that people and companies do.

[Dave Harman]

No, check that. You want the control to be in YOUR hands, not anyone elses. You'd have enjoyed living in the fascist years - IF you were in agreement with the Nazis.

[DJSHOCKLEY]

And if you or your children die because of their negligence, then it sucks to be you...

If hundreds of thousands die in an unnecessary war then that is just fine because the Military Industrial Complex has to have its share

Any attitude to the contrary is socialism...

Anyone that dares to question the system doesn't love their country..

That's absurd. Surely you don't actually believe that, and are just being absurd for the sake of being absurd. If those situations happen, then the corporation has clearly infringed on other's rights, and action can and should be taken against them.

I don't understand how you can call yourself Liberal, yet be in favor of the government seizing control of all that people and companies do.

#1. I never called myself a Liberal... That label is usually applied to tar anyone that is smart enough to see through the Big Business agenda of the extreme right...

#2. Nothing absurd about it. Eisenhower warned us about the Military Industrial Complex shortly before he left office long ago... Even longer ago still Brigadier General Smedley warned us about it when he wrote "War is a Racket" we also learned about it in "The Fog Of War" and we were further educated about it when the "School of the America's" in Fort Benning Georgia was exposed as a place where many of the worlds top dictators were trained... All to do the bidding for American corporations...

[genlock]

Please to read the paragraph right after the "Military-Industrial Complex" statement.
I assume by "Brigadier General Smedley", You are referring to USMC General Smedley Butler.
He won the Congressional Medal Of Honor.... Twice.
Later he was Commandant of the Corps.
He was offered the office of the presidency by a group of Congressmen who wanted to overthrow the government.
Th turned their sorry asses in.

[DJSHOCKLEY]

Please to read the paragraph right after the "Military-Industrial Complex" statement.
I assume by "Brigadier General Smedley", You are referring to USMC General Smedley Butler.
He won the Congressional Medal Of Honor.... Twice.
Later he was Commandant of the Corps.
He was offered the office of the presidency by a group of Congressmen who wanted to overthrow the government.
Th turned their sorry asses in.

You are correct sir... It was known as "The Business Plot"... Many of the worlds top industrialists were implicated... They didn't want FDR or anyone else to get in the way of their money machines, kind of like how the big corps are whining today, so they thought that they could hire Butler and that he in turn could hire the bonus Army to overthrow FDR...

[AmpedNow]

Maybe we should just do what China does, where in any business/corporation the state automatically owns 51% of it. That will surely keep the corruption in check.

As a side note, while Obama is leading us into an another great depression, their economy is growing at 9% every quarter...

Actually, it's the opposite problem. We're taxing and regulating ourselves out of business.

We'll see it soon enough locally after the EPA shuts down all the mines and power plants as a pittance to the environmental tiki gods.

[DJSHOCKLEY]

Maybe we should just do what China does, where in any business/corporation the state automatically owns 51% of it. That will surely keep the corruption in check.

As a side note, while Obama is leading us into an another great depression, their economy is growing at 9% every quarter...

Actually, it's the opposite problem. We're taxing and regulating ourselves out of business.

We'll see it soon enough locally after the EPA shuts down all the mines and power plants as a pittance to the environmental tiki gods.

You have bought all of the Rightwing talking points being spewed out hook, line and sinker..

Not to delve into this too much because this thread is already waaaayyyy off topic, but in George W Bush's recent book he stated the he was surprised when the economy tanked under his watch...

Why??

Because he thought that the regulators would prevent the problem....

Ironic statement after the rightwing has done nothing but try to prevent regulation of ANY kind..

Even if employees have died in the process...

Or the economy tanks and the only people to benefit are the top 3%...

Nuff said....

[just saying]

Straight-ticket voting is the biggest problem in WV
Straight-ticket voting should be outlawed.

[AmpedNow]

You have bought all of the Rightwing talking points being spewed out hook, line and sinker..

Well, at least I don't copy and paste entire pages from radical left wing sites as definitive "proof" that I'm right...

Not to delve into this too much because this thread is already waaaayyyy off topic, but in George W Bush's recent book he stated the he was surprised when the economy tanked under his watch...

Why??

Because he thought that the regulators would prevent the problem....

I thought it was ol' Mushmouth who repeatedly told everybody that there was no housing bubble that was dangerously close to bursting, as recently as 2007?

I blame W. for not being more proactive and aggressive with Congress about getting Fannie and Freddie in check, and alerting the American people of this shell game that was being played on all of us. While he might not have foreseen its severity, the administration had to know that it was close to popping.

Ironic statement after the rightwing has done nothing but try to prevent regulation of ANY kind..

There's a difference between reasonable regulation and stifling regulation.

Even if employees have died in the process...

You have got to be kidding me...

How often does this happen anymore, except in inherently dangerous work, such as being in a mine all day one mile underground?

Or the economy tanks and the only people to benefit are the top 3%...

Nuff said....

If the top 3% go down, they will take a lot of jobs with them.

Wishing misery upon a certain segment of the population will not turn the economy around.

I'm sick of seeing these disingenuous, self-loathing multimillionaires like Obama and Pelosi begging to pay higher taxes... Surely they're ready to take advantage of the tax loopholes themselves.

[Bob Campbell]

If the top 3% go down, they will take a lot of jobs with them.

Wishing misery upon a certain segment of the population will not turn the economy around.

I'm sick of seeing these disingenuous, self-loathing multimillionaires like Obama and Pelosi begging to pay higher taxes... Surely they're ready to take advantage of the tax loopholes themselves.

At what time in our economic past is there any evidence that if "the top 3% go down, they will take a lot of jobs with them"?
How would a 3%percent tax increase (a return to 2001 rate) make them "go down"?
And why were the Bush tax cuts a total failure at generating jobs?

Just asking.

[DJSHOCKLEY]

If the top 3% go down, they will take a lot of jobs with them.

Wishing misery upon a certain segment of the population will not turn the economy around.

I'm sick of seeing these disingenuous, self-loathing multimillionaires like Obama and Pelosi begging to pay higher taxes... Surely they're ready to take advantage of the tax loopholes themselves.

At what time in our economic past is there any evidence that if "the top 3% go down, they will take a lot of jobs with them"?
How would a 3%percent tax increase (a return to 2001 rate) make them "go down"?
And why were the Bush tax cuts a total failure at generating jobs?

Just asking.

Thats just the thing Bob.. The folks that continue to buy the talking points from the right that giving handouts to the rich in the form of tax cuts or outright subsidies creates jobs and is just Oh so necessary either don't understand that they are being flat out lied to, or are on the take themselves..

Most are being brainwashed into supporting policies that go against their own best interests and either are not smart enough or too intellectually lazy to understand whats happening right in front of them...

Even if it is unnecessary wars that murder hundreds of thousands of innocent people, policies that allow Big Pharma to limit care and thus make a killing off watching people die or taking benefits and pensions away from people... Sending jobs overseas etc...

At the end of the day we are left with trying to understand WHY folks blindly support policies that ONLY benefit the top 3%..

There is no question that racism is playing a huge role this election cycle, religious imperialism is also playing a role and we also see the usual amounts of Jingoistic Nationalism and propaganda coming from the well funded Big Business machine...

I just could never understand why people that are otherwise so intelligent would rather spend hours and hours embracing ever increasing amounts of flawed logic and baseless accusations than just admit that they don't know what they heck that they are talking about..

[AmpedNow]

At what time in our economic past is there any evidence that if "the top 3% go down, they will take a lot of jobs with them"?

Do you want to the rich go down? I would rather see all of us, including the top 3%, get out of this rotten economy.

Class warfare doesn't help. It only agitates people who are already stressed out enough.

How would a 3%percent tax increase (a return to 2001 rate) make them "go down"?

The extra money will barely dent the overall deficit. A better solution would be to trim government waste and cut out useless departments. This can be done without cutting one dime in current entitlement payouts.

Maybe a spending freeze for a determined length of time as well.

And why were the Bush tax cuts a total failure at generating jobs?

Just asking.

Bush = 4.5% unemployment rate.

Obama = 9.2% unemployment rate.

Why was the Obama stimulus a total failure at generating jobs?

[AmpedNow]

Even if it is unnecessary wars that murder hundreds of thousands of innocent people,

2004 just called... It wants its left wing rallying cry back.

At the end of the day we are left with trying to understand WHY folks blindly support policies that ONLY benefit the top 3%..

I don't understand this paradigm that in order for the poor to benefit and be happy, the rich must be penalized and be miserable.

There is no question that racism is playing a huge role this election cycle, religious imperialism is also playing a role

I was waiting for it...

You guys just can't help yourselves, can you.

[Bob Campbell]

At what time in our economic past is there any evidence that if "the top 3% go down, they will take a lot of jobs with them"?

Do you want to the rich go down? I would rather see all of us, including the top 3%, get out of this rotten economy.

Class warfare doesn't help. It only agitates people who are already stressed out enough.

How would a 3%percent tax increase (a return to 2001 rate) make them "go down"?

The extra money will barely dent the overall deficit. A better solution would be to trim government waste and cut out useless departments. This can be done without cutting one dime in current entitlement payouts.

Maybe a spending freeze for a determined length of time as well.

And why were the Bush tax cuts a total failure at generating jobs?

Just asking.

Bush = 4.5% unemployment rate.

Obama = 9.2% unemployment rate.

Why was the Obama stimulus a total failure at generating jobs?

Bush takes office, 4.3% unemployment rate. 6 Trillion dollars in deficit spending and tax cuts later, Bush leaves office, over 8% unemployment rate. Current unemployment rate without stimulus and other programs, estimated 16 percent.
The problem with Obama stimulus is that it wasn't big enough.
EVERY major economic downturn in the history of this nation was rectified by massive government intervention. The private sector is simply not big enough nor inclined to do it. Great Depression, massive government programs. 50's recession, massive government spending on highway system. 1980 recession, largest deficit spending (adjusted for inflation) in nation's history as Reagan spent over a trillion.
Bush tax cuts resulted in loss of 8 million jobs during his presidency. Even during the boom years from 03-07, job creation was flat. There is no historical evidence that tax cuts create jobs. It's a myth. There is historical evidence that government spending does. A return to Clinton era tax rates will not in and of itself solve the deficit problem. It will cut over a trillion from the deficit in less than a decade. Spending cuts (especially on defense) are also necessary. Cutting corporate welfare will also be necessary. But if you think the deficit can be solved without raising taxes, you don't understand the problem.

[DJSHOCKLEY]

At what time in our economic past is there any evidence that if "the top 3% go down, they will take a lot of jobs with them"?

Do you want to the rich go down? I would rather see all of us, including the top 3%, get out of this rotten economy.

Class warfare doesn't help. It only agitates people who are already stressed out enough.

How would a 3%percent tax increase (a return to 2001 rate) make them "go down"?

The extra money will barely dent the overall deficit. A better solution would be to trim government waste and cut out useless departments. This can be done without cutting one dime in current entitlement payouts.

Maybe a spending freeze for a determined length of time as well.

And why were the Bush tax cuts a total failure at generating jobs?

Just asking.

Bush = 4.5% unemployment rate.

Obama = 9.2% unemployment rate.

Why was the Obama stimulus a total failure at generating jobs?

Bush takes office, 4.3% unemployment rate. 6 Trillion dollars in deficit spending and tax cuts later, Bush leaves office, over 8% unemployment rate. Current unemployment rate without stimulus and other programs, estimated 16 percent.
The problem with Obama stimulus is that it wasn't big enough.
EVERY major economic downturn in the history of this nation was rectified by massive government intervention. The private sector is simply not big enough nor inclined to do it. Great Depression, massive government programs. 50's recession, massive government spending on highway system. 1980 recession, largest deficit spending (adjusted for inflation) in nation's history as Reagan spent over a trillion.
Bush tax cuts resulted in loss of 8 million jobs during his presidency. Even during the boom years from 03-07, job creation was flat. There is no historical evidence that tax cuts create jobs. It's a myth. There is historical evidence that government spending does. A return to Clinton era tax rates will not in and of itself solve the deficit problem. It will cut over a trillion from the deficit in less than a decade. Spending cuts (especially on defense) are also necessary. Cutting corporate welfare will also be necessary. But if you think the deficit can be solved without raising taxes, you don't understand the problem.

That's it in a nutshell Bob...

Folks that call themselves Republicans these days don't understand that there was something VERY wrong with the Supreme Court stopping the recount and giving Bush the election in 2000...

Don't understand that there was something very wrong when a day after being attacked by Saudi's working with Al Queda, Bush, Cheney and Rummy began drawing up plans to attack a country that THEY KNEW HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT..

Don't understand that when the economy tanked that there was something very wrong with allowing the folks responsible to go back to doing exactly what it was that caused it to tank in the first place with very little regulation to prevent it from happening again...

Dont understand that the the wars were not on the books until Obama took office thus exaggerating the economics under Obamas watch..

Don't understand that welfare for the rich in the form of subsidies and tax breaks do NOT translate to jobs for Americans... Only more money for the CEO's and more work for sweatshops overseas...

Also don't understand that the Republican party now is soo extreme that there is no way Reagan or Eisenhower would even dream of being a part of it...

People in America are dying RIGHT NOW because they cannot afford the price of health care and insurance companies are kicking them off their rolls left and right all for the sake of the mighty dollar...

And folks that are Republicans today don't understand that to actually care about this issue and want to do something about it is NOT Socialism...

Just a prioritization of common human decency over mass profits from entities that make a fortune from human suffering..

[Dave Harman]

It's name-calling, non-productive rhetoric like this that makes people go independent. Congrats.

[Bob Campbell]

And a refusal to accept evidence makes them Republicans?
Just kidding. Both sides have a tendency to do that.
But the evidence indicates the exact opposite of what Republicans claim and plan for the nation's economy.
Our economic problems are too large to be solved by the private sector.
High taxes are Not our problem. We're the lowest taxed developed nation on the planet.
We have a spending problem. We also have a revenue problem. Both must be fixed for the economy to recover.

[Dave Harman]

We have a spending problem. We also have a revenue problem. Both must be fixed for the economy to recover.

I think someone needs to note this moment when we agreed on a point.

But no one's going to fix anything right now, because they're too busy blaming everything on Bush / Obama / Republicans / Democrats / conservatives / liberals. Which is probably accurate, because it IS their fault - however, compromise is political suicide. I'm just waiting for someone to work on fixing the problem, not the blame.