Hit the road, Jack

[Hoosier Daddy]

I listened to WKAZ for a while today while out on the road. Some observations:

The music is lots of 70s stuff, with fewer 60s and early to mid 80s tunes. No 50s heard at all. WKAZ is definately skewing younger. The playlist was decent, with one 'Dear God, I haven't heard that one in decades' song (Chi Coltrane - THUNDER AND LIGHTNING, if you're interested) that made me crank it up and scream along with the music.

The station is obviously automated, because some of the segues I heard should have never seen the light of day. John Denver's "Take Me Home, Country Roads" dropped over the tail end of The Monkees "I'm Not Your Stepping Stone" was a particularly horrific train wreck.

There should be some programming artistry involved here, where songs are chosen because they blend well in the segue, or you go from slow to fast or fast to slow -- maybe with a jingle as a bridge -- and it just fits together SO nicely. If you're going to have the hard drive handle that function, then you need a sharp programmer (dare I say Top 40 programming artist) who can tell what goes with what and orders the music appropriately. It shouldn't be an iPod on shuffle, with god knows and who cares up next ...

KAZ sports a decent jingle package, but I'm already burnt out on the liner "Classic Top 40 radio, 107.3 K-A-Z". It's all they ever say, except for the sophomoric "that was/this is" outro and intro between every third and fourth record.

Have fun with the music, guys!

The only other criticism is that the station is sterile sounding. The morning guy tries to be energetic, but something is missing. He has nothing to talk about, and, to be honest, his voice sounds like a weekend part-timer who got thrown into AM Drive today because someone called off sick. Like the telephone time lady and the NOAA weather dude, the afternoon DJ chick doesn't have a name. And no personality. None. Real Top 40 radio just wasn't that way. See my previous rant about providing the "total sound" of Top 40 radio, not just the music.

Overall, I'd give WKAZ a 7 on a 1-10 scale (Jack was a "6"). On the right track with a more predictable and sellable format, but still lots of work to do. The playlist by itself gets an "8 1/2", so the work here involves adding personality to an arid, liner card reading on-air presentation.

Your mileage may vary.

[SPIKE NESMITH!]

I've heard it in bits and bobs over the week - it's not my format but what I heard was decent. I'm no fan of oldies, so my intrigue over jingles and segues is usually trumped by a "gawd, shut UP!" when some 60s bint starts warbling, or I hear a group of couiffered backing singers making "wah wah wah weee oohhh" noises.

Overall though - and I'm quite prepared to take pelters over this comment - it made me realise how much I miss sung jingles!

[Dave Loudin]

There should be some programming artistry involved here, where songs are chosen because they blend well in the segue, or you go from slow to fast or fast to slow -- maybe with a jingle as a bridge -- and it just fits together SO nicely. If you're going to have the hard drive handle that function, then you need a sharp programmer (dare I say Top 40 programming artist) who can tell what goes with what and orders the music appropriately. It shouldn't be an iPod on shuffle, with god knows and who cares up next ...

KAZ sports a decent jingle package, but I'm already burnt out on the liner "Classic Top 40 radio, 107.3 K-A-Z". It's all they ever say, except for the sophomoric "that was/this is" outro and intro between every third and fourth record.

Have fun with the music, guys!

That pretty much sums up how I feel about the format especially since they use the classic top 40 radio handle. I don't know if John Q. 45-yr-old feels the same way. I seriously doubt he could tell you (only radio pros and nerds could), but I believe he would spot it and react positively if he heard it. The under-35 crowd has probably never heard a station put together that way, so they don't care.

[omgyoukilledkenny]

"There should be some programming artistry involved here, where songs are chosen because they blend well in the segue, or you go from slow to fast or fast to slow -- maybe with a jingle as a bridge -- and it just fits together SO nicely. If you're going to have the hard drive handle that function, then you need a sharp programmer (dare I say Top 40 programming artist) who can tell what goes with what and orders the music appropriately. It shouldn't be an iPod on shuffle, with god knows and who cares up next ..."


I must disagree. Why shouldn't it be an iPod shuffle? The "train wreck" element CAN be intriguing enough to keep people listening. This may be a bad comparison, but I relate it to shock jock radio...people listen just to hear what they're going to say next. Well, why can't that work for a playlist? Might the public keep listening through a song that they would ordinarily not listen to just to hear what's going to be played next? I think there's some validity to that.

[Rock]

One of the supposed 'appeals' of the Jack-Bob-Fred-George format was the 'trainwreck' concept. It appears to not be the panacea that some talking heads thought. Otherwise, why flip again?

[omgyoukilledkenny]

I agree that was one of the appeals. But on 107.3 I never heard any segues that I would necessarily call a "train wreck". They stayed with more of an 80's mix. It was somewhat undistinguishable from Mix 100.9...sort of a classic hits format. And besides, I'm not sure the Jack format is failing everywhere.

[Zak Tyler]

I must disagree. Why shouldn't it be an iPod shuffle? The "train wreck" element CAN be intriguing enough to keep people listening. This may be a bad comparison, but I relate it to shock jock radio...people listen just to hear what they're going to say next. Well, why can't that work for a playlist? Might the public keep listening through a song that they would ordinarily not listen to just to hear what's going to be played next? I think there's some validity to that.

in your scenario would there be ANY playlist restirctions? any songs/era's/artists/niche formats/anything restricted or left off the playlist???

[Hoosier Daddy]

I must disagree. Why shouldn't it be an iPod shuffle? The "train wreck" element CAN be intriguing enough to keep people listening.

Because REAL Top 40 radio wasn't done that way. Think back to 77WABC, or The Big 8, or WLS, or Super CFL. Even with a wider variety of music that qualified as Top 40 (as opposed to today's CHR micro-formats -- rhythmic, urban, etc,) there WAS NO TRAINWRECK in how songs were played. Indeed, a great deal of attention was used to select the order, and, in fact, the specific jingle used to start a record or to bridge two songs.

The "train wreck" element CAN be intriguing enough to keep people listening. This may be a bad comparison, but I relate it to shock jock radio...people listen just to hear what they're going to say next.

A bad comparison. See the smoldering remains of the "Jack" format for additional validation. If you're really interested in learning about the Top 40 sound, PM me. I will direct you to some specific REELRADIO.com audio clips (many now unscoped) that will let you hear how it used to be. The big Top 40 stations were nothing short of being Master Programming Artists.

[Arp2]

... there WAS NO TRAINWRECK in how songs were played. Indeed, a great deal of attention was used to select the order.... The big Top 40 stations were nothing short of being Master Programming Artists.

"Ok, you take the front 45 off the peg, play it, and then put it back on the back of the stack on the peg. Got it? Good! Go to work!"

[Hoosier Daddy]

... there WAS NO TRAINWRECK in how songs were played. Indeed, a great deal of attention was used to select the order.... The big Top 40 stations were nothing short of being Master Programming Artists.

"Ok, you take the front 45 off the peg, play it, and then put it back on the back of the stack on the peg. Got it? Good! Go to work!"

Not so.

[Zak Tyler]

... there WAS NO TRAINWRECK in how songs were played. Indeed, a great deal of attention was used to select the order.... The big Top 40 stations were nothing short of being Master Programming Artists.

"Ok, you take the front 45 off the peg, play it, and then put it back on the back of the stack on the peg. Got it? Good! Go to work!"

LOL... wow, did you ever work at WYCS in Yorktown???

[Arp2]

"Ok, you take the front 45 off the peg, play it, and then put it back on the back of the stack on the peg. Got it? Good! Go to work!"

LOL... wow, did you ever work at WYCS in Yorktown???

No, and I never worked like that, at all*.....that's just how it was done in many, many places.



* Close, though...once....

[omgyoukilledkenny]

"in your scenario would there be ANY playlist restirctions? any songs/era's/artists/niche formats/anything restricted or left off the playlist???"

Yes there would be playlist restrictions. I wouldn't mix jazz with bluegrass, or classical with gangsta rap...in fact I wouldn't include those formats at all. The trainwreck format I'm suggesting would stick with all the hybrid formats that have branched off of Top 40 through the years...AC, Light AC, Adult 40, Modern Rock, etc. I would get back to the format where Rush and Kenny Rogers could co-exist. I remember distinctly hearing "New World Man" and "Lady" in the same sweep 'lo those many years ago. How many PDs remain that would attempt such a blasphemus act? Most of you would say there's a reason for that, I say don't knock it till you try it.

"Because REAL Top 40 radio wasn't done that way. Think back to 77WABC, or The Big 8, or WLS, or Super CFL. Even with a wider variety of music that qualified as Top 40 (as opposed to today's CHR micro-formats -- rhythmic, urban, etc,) there WAS NO TRAINWRECK in how songs were played. Indeed, a great deal of attention was used to select the order, and, in fact, the specific jingle used to start a record or to bridge two songs."

So, if I understand your argument correctly - and the jury is always meeting about that - you're saying that just because there was no trainwreck then there can be no train wreck now? Every one of the "new" formats that first originated as Top 40 debuted at some point. They had never been attempted before. Some succeeded and some failed. It seems a new one pops up every few months. Well this is one that, I admit, hasn't been done exactly the way I'm suggesting. My contention is if you play a segue that would be deemed a "train wreck" (I'm beginning to tire of that term already) you will have those listeners that like the song(s) and you'll have those listeners that are curious to hear what you're going to play next. I'm positive you'll have some listeners tune out that take offense to mixing Neil Diamond and GNR, but you'l have the Neil Diamond fans, the GNR fans and those that are listenring for curiosity sake. Just my theory.

"A bad comparison. See the smoldering remains of the "Jack" format for additional validation. If you're really interested in learning about the Top 40 sound, PM me. I will direct you to some specific REELRADIO.com audio clips (many now unscoped) that will let you hear how it used to be. The big Top 40 stations were nothing short of being Master Programming Artists."

I did identify it as a bad comparison, thanks for agreeing... And having been a listener of Top 40 since the early 70's, I'm somewhat versed in "how it used to be". Thanks for the offer though.

[Zak Tyler]

looking to the past to guide the future is a viable concept. and i'm sure that formula may work in some places for a period of time. not to say wheter it would be a good or bad station, because that's totally subjective.

but using the only quantifiable measuring system we have in place for radio today, the outdated Arbitron diary system, this format would suffer the same fate as all previous "we play everything" formats. high cume and high tsl to start. (which plays right along with what you envision "what will they play next) but after a book or 2 the novelty will begin to fade with the early adoptors. then you'll be in the "here they come, there they go" phase. people will give the station a chance, but eventually become bored with sitting through too many song they don't like. there will be a constant roll-over of different listeners, until most people in the market have come and gone, with a few stragglers that like all kinds of music. so, in an arbitron nutshell, you're cume would probably do pretty good for the life of the station with people checking back every now and again. but the reason you thought the station would succeed in the first place is the reason it would eventually fail in the long run. too diverse.

on the other hand focused diversity might be a thing of the future. you're already starting to see a little of it with the "wolf" formats that Entercom have been throwing up. loosely positioned as "Rockin' Country". where you take a demographic, in this case men 25-49 let's say. look at thier cd collections, everything from skynyrd to haggard to kid rock, to guns n roses to hank jr..... in this case you've sliced a piece of demographic pie and now you're going to pour a glass of milk and enjoy. always start with an end in mind.

radio listeners are basically creatures of habit, but thier habits change with their moods, so depending on their mood, that is what they'll seek on their radios. which brings me back to an excercise i posted a while back. when a typical radio listener changes the radio station, they don't use the "seek" button. they'll use the presets. and they already know what station is on which pre-set. so when he/she decides in thier mind (from their current mood) what they want to hear, they reach for that button. even though they don't know what's on the station at that particular time, they still have an idea of what they will hear when they press that button. if they don't hear it, they hit the next choice of what their mood tells them they want to hear. and they continue that process until their need is met. when you have a station without definition or focus, you're not at the top of anyone's mind. top of mind awareness is what makes a station successful, lack of it can kill a station. (in our current arbitron landscape)

granted your station would be interesting to the likes of people on this board, because we are all radio geeks, we love all things radio. we like it when people step out of the box and do something new. we look up to people with the balls to lay it out there and take a chance on something nobody's had the guts to do yet. and of course we wouldn't be true radio geeks if we didn't LOVE where this business has come from. the old boss jocks, throwin down more wax than a candle factory.... ahhh the good ol days i'm just wondering when someone is going to try and tap into that 18-30 year old male demo, with all that disposable income. the money that's put no their cars these days, their clothes, their electronics. these are the ones that embrace the newest of fashion and technology. look at their cd collection and put on a station for them... put The Beat in a blender with X and see what comes out???





i seriously need to quit taking vacation... i think too much lol

[Rock]

Well said, Zak.

But, where's the obligatory 'boobies' reference?

[Zak Tyler]

Well said, Zak.

But, where's the obligatory 'boobies' reference?

DAMMIT>.. i always forget that S#!T when i'm talkin shop.....

WE WANT BOOBIES IN THE WHITE HOUSE..... (paid for by the partnership to elect jay nunley for president)

[Dave Loudin]

I'll second the kudos for Zak. To tie what he said back to what HD and I are saying about "classic top-40 radio," when I hear that slogan, I think of the music and the presentation of the big guns of the '67 - '78 era (HD's list). That's what I would expect to hear when I punch up a station using that slogan. That's why I didn't feel immediate love for 'KAZ. I believe that people my age and older would react the same way. Most under-40s would not care, so the question gets down to who are you targeting?

To Arp's point: yes, there were hundreds of smaller fry that operated like that, but that's not what you would want to recreate is it?

[Arp2]

To Arp's point: yes, there were hundreds of smaller fry that operated like that, but that's not what you would want to recreate is it?

Well, no, not necessarily, but that brings up the idea that, once the consumer's moments of nostalgia come to an end, the product has to be packaged in a contemporary way for it to be relevant to said today's consumer of it.

[Hoosier Daddy]

... once the consumer's moments of nostalgia come to an end, the product has to be packaged in a contemporary way for it to be relevant to said today's consumer of it.

I hope you don't mean:

* Arid liner cards.
* "No Personality" jocks.
* Canned imaging voices.
* Jingles and songs that are totally random.
* 50 song playlists

That's what I hear in many of today's "contemporary" formats, and that's where current Oldies stations (probably programmed by the 31 year old APD of the rock station down the hall) f*ck it all up.

Oldies and Top 40 radio ARE about nostalgia -- and so is Adult Standards and Classic Country. Recreate the entire sound of the Big Guns. Hell, with 35 years to research and study what made them successful, you think someone would have a clue and a plan. I'm not advocating free form, play-what-you-want, every other song a turd radio, but a powerful, carefully scripted behind the scenes and certainly not dull presentation.

Peace out.

[Jay Nunley]

"Rockin' Country". where you take a demographic, in this case men 25-49 let's say. look at thier cd collections, everything from skynyrd to haggard to kid rock, to guns n roses to hank jr..... in this case you've sliced a piece of demographic pie and now you're going to pour a glass of milk and enjoy. always start with an end in mind.

I know of two times this was tried and it failed. It wouldn't surpise me to find out this may work now as opposed to ten or fifteen years ago. I don't know. Both of the attempts at this format (I'm familiar with) were poorly marketed or never marketed at all. That could be the reason for those failures. It could be I just want that kind of format to be viable now because it is aimed at me.

they'll use the presets. and they already know what station is on which pre-set. so when he/she decides in thier mind (from their current mood) what they want to hear, they reach for that button. even though they don't know what's on the station at that particular time, they still have an idea of what they will hear when they press that button. if they don't hear it, they hit the next choice of what their mood tells them they want to hear. and they continue that process until their need is met. when you have a station without definition or focus, you're not at the top of anyone's mind. top of mind awareness is what makes a station successful, lack of it can kill a station. (in our current arbitron landscape)

Fuckin' A.

put The Beat in a blender with X and see what comes out???

Isn't that CHR? I keep hearing six month old Rock recurrents as currents on CHR, but it's always crossover shit from Nickelback or Hinder. Is this idea a male oriented CHR like Alternative originally was with rhythmic added? Can it work? Would you present it in a gay CHR way trying to grab some females too or would you present it with a boobs, beer, farts, football, Active Rock way?