Charleston Ratings

[Jay Nunley]

Dave doesn't have the money to do that. Most of his income goes in my pocket for "taking care" of his wife.

[SPIKE NESMITH!]

A station like WQBE may have the occasional down book, but it won't be that way two books in a row. They would have to totally suck in every way for years to really crash and given the air talent, programmers, and other staff involved that simply isn't going to happen.

Well sure, but it's like the millennium; Remember in 1999 when all those people thumbed their nose at the folks celebrating the new year harder than usual, because the real millennium didn't start until 200*1*? The specific mathematical details are significant in their own way and to the right people, the psychological effect of having all the numbers in the date change or, in QBE's case, not being on top of every single book, is what makes most people sit up and take notice. And - good or bad, right or wrong - most people, particularly those with no programming experience, tend to look at 12+ as an overall view of the market, rather than concentrating on who your station is actually broadcasting *to*.

In the nine years I've worked in this market, I've never seen QBE anywhere other than slap bang on top by a wide margin, and this is the first time I've ever seen anyone come close to threatening that. They may still be barnstorming their P1s (I've not seen any breakdowns) and I'm sure the station itself is Bristol's blank check when it comes to advertising, but, as Dave says, it is significant just to see an injured giant like QBE, even if it is in 12+.

[Chris Lawrence]

I'm with Nunley on Dave being broke and a mooch. Last time I saw him I got stuck with the bar tab. ......and I don't even drink..... So if he won't pay for something as important as beer and liquor, why would anybody think he would fork over cash for something as meaningless as ratings.

Just an observation. That is all.

[Big Media]

millennium and stuff

[Jay Nunley]

Those are good points Spikeroo. I'm just saying that the wounded giant isn't really all that wounded. I'm not taking anything away from WQBE's competitors (specifically WKWS, WVAF, WVSR, or even WKLC). Our small little market is terribly competitive and the air talent and programmers are never going to make it easy for anyone. I'm not just saying that because I have friends at most of the stations in the market. It's truly hard out there for a pimp.

[Radio Guy]

Good to see that my comments made everyone come alive on this site
and for a good topic RATINGS! I can assure you I'm not new in the
radio business, so my comments are not without merit.

Let's compare what happens when Country vs Rock as in the
Morgantown market. For years, it's been a toss up between
WVAQ or WKKW taking the top spot. Why does this happen, because
it depends on who gets the Arbitron books. In many cases, Arbitron
keeps going back to the same diary keepers year after year, yes I
know this to be true, more than one diary keeper has said this to me.
You also get to order as many as 4 books for your household, so if
someone wanted to get counted 4 times for their favorite station(s)
it's easy to do.

Back to Charleston, I can assure you that COUNTRY Listeners DID NOT
GO TO ROCK stations. If the numbers for the Wolf went up to compensate
what WQBE lost, then we can say that WQBE is on a decline, BUT
the numbers did not go to another Country station.

I'm sure enough of you out there have worked in Country music and
I'm sure enough of you know that Country listeners are VERY loyal to
their music, hard to change a Redneck's mind. The most I ever saw
anyone stray is to Classic Rock for a few Southern Rock songs.

With all that said, it boils back down to the placement of books,
if Arbitron has a track record of the response it gets from certain
diary keepers, Arbitron then has knowledge of what diary keepers will
respond with certain formats - Country vs Rock music stations.
So the bottom line is, if the correct influence is asserted, the diaries
can in fact be sent to NON-COUNTRY listeners in an attempt to kill a
competitor. Lucky for WQBE, they also own Electric 102.7 which made
a surprise RISE toward the top.

Let's see what happens next time around, but let's also see what
happens to like formats and compare Country stations to other
Country stations and Rock to Rock stations. That is the real way
to determine if a station is doomed.

[Jay Nunley]

You couldn't possibly be more wrong.

My station shares more listening with country stations than other rock stations. Hell, we share more listeners with WVSR than we do WZJO.

Assumptions about listening trends based on a "personal sample" are almost always proven to be beyond inaccurate.

The truth is, that the vast majority of males 25-54 in this market like Black Sabbath AND they like George Strait. As a matter of fact a 35 year old dude who loves AC/DC in Charleston or Huntington/Ashland is ten times more likely to also listen to the new Brad Paisley than they are the new Avenged Sevenfold.

There is a reason there are so many rock and country stations around here. People around here like rock and country.

[Clay JD Walker]

A nod to the always correct Nunley...same thing down here, home boy.

[Dave Allen]

Well, thanks to Jay for bringing up my ratings since I'm far too modest to ever do so. As for paying off Arbitron, any extra money I have goes for cocaine. As for my sticking Lawrence with the bar tab...yeah, I think I did do that. Damn, I hate myself for that. Perhaps I was just hoping for a quick hookup at the WVBA's last year. Bad thing about Lawrence is he always smells like deer urine.

[Radio Guy]

I'm sure enough of you out there have worked in Country music and
I'm sure enough of you know that Country listeners are VERY loyal to
their music, hard to change a Redneck's mind. The most I ever saw
anyone stray is to Classic Rock for a few Southern Rock songs.

Jay, note my quote, I agree with you that Country listeners are apt to go
to Classic Rock. I don't want you to think that I'm trying to slam WKLC.
I think you have made some great improvements and it shows both in
numbers and just listening to the station.

I guess I should have been more specific, WQBE vs. WVAF or WVSR.

As for my "personal sample" it is no more different that your "personal
sample". My information and observation comes from interaction of our
country listeners, our rock listeners and our other formats. I guess
working with mulitple stations at the same place can create lots of
opportunity to ask questions for listener preferences.

Once again my "personal sampling" from speaking to radio listeners.

[Swing'n Dick]

I'm sure enough of you out there have worked in Country music and
I'm sure enough of you know that Country listeners are VERY loyal to
their music, hard to change a Redneck's mind. The most I ever saw
anyone stray is to Classic Rock for a few Southern Rock songs.

Jay, note my quote, I agree with you that Country listeners are apt to go
to Classic Rock.

But you just said...

I can assure you that COUNTRY Listeners DID NOT
GO TO ROCK stations.

Which college do you work for? And did you work at WPAY?


Actually... nevermind those questions.

few Southern Rock songs.

Which station do you own?

[Arp2]

Let's compare what happens when Country vs Rock as in the Morgantown market. For years, it's been a toss up between
WVAQ or WKKW taking the top spot. Why does this happen, because
it depends on who gets the Arbitron books.

Well, yes, but only to a very small extent because of what you're implying. If you think about it, every station's result every time depends on who gets diaries!

In many cases, Arbitron keeps going back to the same diary keepers year after year, yes I know this to be true, more than one diary keeper has said this to me.

Well, leaving the specifics of that statement out, let's just generally stipulate that, in any two universes of different sizes, a member of the smaller universe is more likely to be selected for a survey than any single member of the larger universe even if there's a larger sample taken of the larger universe.

And these places you're talking about are not particularly large universes.

And broadcast companies generally don't like to hear, "yeah, we just couldn't seem to get enough cooperation in that particular cell, so we just gave up and left it out."

You also get to order as many as 4 books for your household, so if
someone wanted to get counted 4 times for their favorite station(s)
it's easy to do.

But the number of diaries sent is directly related to the number of people 12+ in the household. What you say is theoretically possible, but that'd be one shrewd son of a gun who could instantly interpret "please tell me how many living, breathing human beings 12 years of age and older there are in your household" to mean "here's your chance to screw with the system and 'vote' more for your favorite station if you can instantly invent more people now, invent lots of listening from those invented people later, and actually do a bunch of writing in those extra diaries to fake the existence of those invented people."

Sheesh....you're kinda lucky to get one person in a household to do a really conscientious job with it. And, by the way, Arbitron's folks who deal with the raw diaries are taught to spot this, and, should something get by them, people who check diaries often spot it later. It's not exactly unheard of for books to get reissued, you know.

Back to Charleston, I can assure you that COUNTRY Listeners DID NOT GO TO ROCK stations.

True.

Because they went to AC, CHR, Classic Hits, Oldies, Nostalgia, Christian, Talk, AND ROCK stations!

Probably. I would assume. Did I miss any? Have to ask 'em to be sure, but Country listeners can go almost anywhere. See, the final book is a lot like a football scoreboard -- you can see how many points were scored in the quarters along the way and the final score of the game, but you can't have any idea of how those points got put up without looking at something else, entirely.

And Country is having its issues with yet another (attempt at a) transition, which you surely know about if you really follow country like you're implying. And, if you want to talk about it, what's going on in Charleston with what's going on in Nashville and the marketplace? The only way to know for sure would be to know for sure, and I'm getting the feeling you just don't know for sure.

If the numbers for the Wolf went up to compensate
what WQBE lost, then we can say that WQBE is on a decline, BUT
the numbers did not go to another Country station.

Exactly. Which, if I haven't totally lost the flow, argues against your conclusion.

I'm sure enough of you out there have worked in Country music and I'm sure enough of you know that Country listeners are VERY loyal to
their music, hard to change a Redneck's mind. The most I ever saw anyone stray is to Classic Rock for a few Southern Rock songs.

Times and people change. All that stuff I knew for sure to be true back when I started? I'm not sure any of it is still true.

(...although I secretly suspect some of it is. After all, this ain't rocket surgery, and it's probably about time for the yo-yo and the hula hoop to come back again. )

With all that said, it boils back down to the placement of books,
if Arbitron has a track record of the response it gets from certain
diary keepers, Arbitron then has knowledge of what diary keepers will
respond with certain formats - Country vs Rock music stations.

If you can use personal anecdotes as an indication of what's going on, then so can I (and be just as -- no, make that "almost as" -- wrong...maybe).

In the past five years, the music radio I listen to in the time I spend listening to music radio has changed by 80-90%. If I had been a diarykeeper in the past (and had maintained the same phone number and residence where I could be reached), what good would it do to contact me if you were trying to rig something?

Now, do you think I'm alone? That I'm the only one who has changed what I listen to or hear? Nope. People change. And, sometimes, people kinda have changes forced upon them. Did I leave CHR, or did CHR leave me? Did I leave AOR, or did AOR leave me? Did I leave Country, or did Country leave me? Did I leave Soft AC, or did Soft AC leave me? Did I leave Smooth Jazz (once NAC), or did Smooth Jazz (once NAC) leave me? Did I leave Urban, or did Urban leave me? Either way, people and formats or genres go in different directions, at times.

Or life happens and causes listening to go up or down. There are just all kinds of things that factor into these things. Everything a station does matters, but nothing a station does matters when life happens as listeners are living theirs.

So the bottom line is, if the correct influence is asserted, the diaries can in fact be sent to NON-COUNTRY listeners in an attempt to kill a competitor.

To what end? Seriously...to what end?

Let's see what happens next time around, but let's also see what
happens to like formats and compare Country stations to other
Country stations and Rock to Rock stations. That is the real way
to determine if a station is doomed.

I have a better idea -- how about comparing stations and formats to the listeners and potential listeners of them?? As people change, the number of shares available to each format changes along with them, so the people have to figure in at some point. As you go through the process, the sooner, the better, wouldn't you think?

[Chris Lawrence]

Okay, I"m feeling a little nervous now....Dave says he was trying to "hook up" while in Charleston. The only problem was, he was with six dudes at the bar INCLUDING ME! The only girl was Erin.

Note to self, no more hanging out with Dave. Period.

[Dave Allen]

Damn, those were dudes?

[Jay Nunley]

I don't want you to think that I'm trying to slam WKLC.

I don't. Why would I think that? This is the first nuts and bolts radio discussion I wanted to get in on in awhile. This kind of thread (and numerous opportunities to be a smart ass) is why I starting frequenting this board.

Damn, those were dudes?

Dude. You knew they were dudes.

[Bob Campbell]

Dude. Did the dudes know YOU were a dude?

Ratings, similar situation in country here in the Triad, with Clay's Wolf taking down our "QBE", WTQR. We (Classic Hits) share listeners with both Rock and Country stations. And the mainstream AC. And the Jack.

[StopSet]

I know one thing...Country listeners don't know shit about Pink Floyd

[Dave Allen]

Or dental care.

[Hoosier Daddy]

Or dental care.

[AmpedNow]

Now, do you think I'm alone? That I'm the only one who has changed what I listen to or hear? Nope. People change. And, sometimes, people kinda have changes forced upon them. Did I leave CHR, or did CHR leave me? Did I leave AOR, or did AOR leave me? Did I leave Country, or did Country leave me? Did I leave Soft AC, or did Soft AC leave me? Did I leave Smooth Jazz (once NAC), or did Smooth Jazz (once NAC) leave me? Did I leave Urban, or did Urban leave me? Either way, people and formats or genres go in different directions, at times.

Well, I'm happy to report a close 26-year history with CHR, and a 15-year history with alternative (not active).

(And FTR, a 30-year history with country, very much against my will.)

It doesn't look like I'm leaving either one anytime soon. I still like what I hear overall.

Some of us are more stubborn than others.